Senior Tibetan lama Thaye Dorje (C) has claimed to be the reincarnation of the Karmapa Lama since childhood, is seen in a file photo taken in Bodh Gaya, India, on 14 December 2013. File photo/AFP/Getty Images/Sanjay Kumar
AFP
ON THE WEB, 30 March 2017
A senior Tibetan lama at the centre of a long-running row over one of Buddhism’s most important titles has abandoned the monkhood altogether after marrying a childhood friend in India, his office said Thursday.
Thaye Dorje, 33, has claimed since childhood to be the reincarnation of the Karmapa Lama, the leader of one of the four major schools of Tibetan Buddhism.
But many adherents of the Karma Kagyu school of Buddhism follow another monk with a rival claim to the title, Urgyen Trinley, who is recognised by the Dalai Lama.
The disagreement has long split Tibetan Buddhists, but on Thursday Thaye Dorje’s office made the surprise announcement that he had married in a private ceremony in New Delhi on 25 March, and abandoned the monkhood.
“I have a strong feeling, deep within my heart, that my decision to marry will have a positive impact not only for me, but also for the lineage,” the statement quoted Thaye Dorje as saying.
“Something beautiful, something beneficial will emerge, for all of us.”
Thaye Dore will continue to fulfil the role of the Karmapa, including by offering teachings and blessings to students around the world, his office said.
His new wife, 36-year-old Rinchen Yangzom, was born in Bhutan and educated in India and Europe.
Under Tibetan tradition, monks identify a young boy who shows signs he is a reincarnation of a late leader.
Thaye Dorje was born in Tibet and his own father was a high lama, while his mother was descended from Tibetan nobility.
According to his official biography, he was just one-and-a-half years old when he started telling people that he was the Karmapa.
In a 2012 interview he told AFP the disagreement over the Karmapa title “tests one’s courage in terms of devotion”.
The Karmapa Lama is not the only senior Tibetan Buddhist title to be disputed.
In 1995, China’s atheist government picked a young boy to be the Panchen Lama — a role already filled by another boy chosen by the Dalai Lama.
The Dalai Lama’s choice was detained by Chinese authorities at the age of six and has not been seen since.
The Panchen Lama traditionally plays a significant role in the choice of the Dalai Lama’s successor.
But China’s officially atheist Communist Party has repeatedly said it has the right to control the process of reincarnation.
Many Tibetan Buddhists fear Beijing may seek to impose their choice of spiritual leader after the Dalai Lama’s death.
I disagree with your reasoning on the censorship of my comments, which in simple terms are extremely mild in regards to sarcasm.
As you obviously are the judge and jury of what is right or wrong, there isn’t any room for people like myself to further engage in your site.
I recognize that you have provided a forum for discussion on all things Tibet and would hope that you will remind yourself that on a broader scale, Democracy exists only when it is challenged.
[[ hi palden la — you make very good points. I think the difference in our views is based on a differing idea of what a website forum is. A forum, on or off the Web, is not a democracy. It is like a person’s room. People in a democracy can decide to visit your room or not, the government cannot stop them. But i bet you are the judge and jury of who can come there, and of what is right or wrong inside your room! This is not “censorship”, this is your right to decide in your room. We have developed our Comment Guidelines from those at several well-known and respected websites. You can follow the links in our guidelines, if you want to learn more about this issue (which i admit is confusing to many). Thanks much for ideas and discussion! — Web Admin ]]
TibetSun/LW 1 : Palden 0
shh..shh…shanti! shanti!…silence….
“Know from the rivers in clefts and in crevices: those in small channels flow noisily, the great flow silent. Whatever’s not full makes noise. Whatever is full is quiet.”
— Buddha’s verse from Sutta Nipata
“Be spacious, patient, and forgiving so as not to lose control of yourself. Please be sympathetic and understanding so as not to disturb anyone else’s mind.”
— Ogyen Trinley Dorje
It is Karma Thaye Dorje’s right and his choice to wear the robe, or something else, or nothing, hereafter.
Dear Tsering Chodon, have you heard of Cherry Picking? To be in any discipline, you have to follow the rules or the edicts prescribed in that discipline. Cherry picking isn’t allowed. That’s what leads to the degeneration of the Holy Dharma. Ask some Bhante in Shri Lanka what “Vinaya” is? It is being followed by both Theraveda as well as Mahayana. For now, forget clefts and crevices. It wouldn’t be wrong on my part to assume your vessel is the one half empty making all the unintelligent noises. Peace out.
Tsering Chodon La from Shri Lanka cited a quote about empty vessel making much noise which I am sure everyone here knows well.
But what we see here is Holy Dharma and Vinaya getting diluted by so called “Lamas and Tulkus”. They do whatever fits them with no regards to the sanctity of the Buddha Dharma as a whole.
Everything comes with a territory, my dear. If you are married, you are expected to be loyal to your partner. You can’t go around screwing with others while in your marriage and so forth. Even the ubiquitous cell phone comes with a owner’s manual telling us how to use, what to do and what not to do or else something else will happen not good in the long run. It is that simple. We don’t have to argue back and forth. It is all established in the Holy Vinaya.
Try to comprehend the crux of the matter here instead of shoving your uneducated liberal opinion saying he can do whatever he wants and is no one’s business. We understand that. As I have said, he can marry as many time as he wants (probably much more to make up for the lost time) but follow the rules and Do not bend them by diluting it.
Nyingma and Kagyu lamas (some) are NO exception. There are only 2 precepts. 1. Goekar Changloe Dae. 2. Rabjung Ngurmeik Gi Dae. NO mention of Khichri Ki Dae OR Rang Nang Gang Char Gi Dae was prescribed by Acharya Shanta Rakshita when he introduced Buddhism in Tibet.
Go read some book and then we can continue. Otherwise it is pointless.
For the sake of buddha dharma I wholeheartedly agree. Dorjee 1 : Tsecho 0
“Know from the rivers in clefts and in crevices: those in small channels flow noisily, the great flow silent. Whatever’s not full makes noise. Whatever is full is quiet.”
— Buddha’s verse from Sutta Nipata
“Be spacious, patient, and forgiving so as not to lose control of yourself. Please be sympathetic and understanding so as not to disturb anyone else’s mind.”
— Ogyen Trinley Dorje
We are all being too noisy on this topic. It shows how empty our mind really is, and is a reflection of our narrow-mindedness.
Tenzin Kunsang la
To me your comments are irrespective of the facts or common sense. I wish you could understand my arguments on the self-caused harm within our tiny community.
[[Comment edited as per Tibet Sun Comment Guidelines — especially mouse over the “touchstones for intelligent discussion.” Sarcasm and subtle jabs do not support our points. Even though subtle, they are still wounds; and we don’t want to wound our family, do we? Of course not! 🙂 Thank you — Web Admin]]
Maybe we all fell into his trap of not disrobing so we all pay attention to him since nobody else does.
Tenzing Kunsang la:
I think that as a Gelug it’s of no use to lecture what should or should not be for the Kagyu sect, unless you are a scholar on the subject.
It seems to me, that by your logic If physical similarities are criteria for recognizing high Lamas, then I would assume you would concede that the 14th Dalai Lama does not look like the great 13th. And I would ask you if you accept our present Kundun to be the genuine reincarnation of the 13th.
Also, what do you have to say about the 15th Karmapa? He was married and supposedly had four children.
We Tibetans have enough problems of our own without creating more problems among ourselves about who is genuine and who isn’t and lecturing other schools of what is right or wrong in their sect. Let the followers of each school, or Lama in this case, be the judges.
I told you I am a non-sectarian, and therefore I revere and follow lamas from other sects, of course who are worthy. Hence, Ugyen Thinley Dorje is my 17th Karmapa.
From the looks, what I mean is just that alone will tell you a lot about the 16th and the 17th Karmapa. There are so many other things that will confirm how Ugyen Thinley Dorje is the undisputed reincarnation of the 16th. So don’t be naive about that.
The 15th Karmapa may have married, but I am sure he didn’t wear monk’s robes after that.
Case in point, the last Panchen Lama. After he disrobed, he wore chupa rather than monk’s robes.
Clear?
I am not being judgmental, but expressing my views and how things work. I already said before, I have no problem however one chose to live one’s life. Everyone is free to choose.
For me he is a Karmapa claimant. Anybody can do that. There is another claimant in Sikkim. But if he claims to be a Karmapa, there are certain things he needs to follow and make himself worthy of the title. In that, he needs to be a monk at the least. If he chooses to get married, he is no more a monk and therefore he cannot put on the monk’s robes. That’s how it is. Right now he is being a bat, that when he’s in the flock of birds, he says I am a bird showing his wings, and when he is among rats, he say I am a rat showing his teeth. So the whole thing is coming to nothing, but he’s just proving that he is not worthy of the title. And that’s happening because he’s a claimant.
By lineage I am from Gelug. But as a follower of His Holiness the Dalai Lama, I practice non-sectarian, and for me Ugyen Thinley Dorje is the undisputed 17th Karmapa. Just put the photos of the 16th Karmapa and Ugyen Thinley Dorje and you will see what it’s coming to. It will become clear that he is the real incarnation of the 16th.
Now, whatever and however Thaye Dorje wants to live his life, it’s totally up to him. That’s his right. I am not disputing that, and I don’t think others are disputing that either. But to be wearing monk’s robes while being married is something not right in principle and by rule that he accepted and wanted to follow after claiming to be the Karmapa.
It is kind of interesting to see the comments of some fellow Tibetans here. Some think as long as you’re not in his camp your opinion doesn’t count and there are those who think that can’t judge others.
Well, this is called “Opinion Page”. You express your opinion about the subject matter. You don’t have to have Ph.D in expressing your opinion.
Kagyu is one of the sect of Tibetan Buddhism and you have to follow the Holy Vinaya rules. No matter which sect you belong to.
Degeneration of Dharma doesn’t happen in one lifetime. By mixing up what ever likes — putting on monk robes while having “consorts” is a no no according to Vinaya. Now if you don’t say something when you see something wrong, then you are also part of the problem.
To follow Dharma or not is one’s choice. To practice Dharma or not is one’s choice. But once you do, you darn well practice as is prescribed according to the Holy Vinaya. That is breaking samaya. And should be criticized by all. Otherwise, where is the boundary?
If it wasn’t his choice, and he was dragged to this, he had a choice and could have come out clean by announcing, “I am not the real Karmapa and I opt to live a regular life of a lay person.” But he didn’t. He stirred a lot of controversy. When he knew it wasn’t going anywhere, the Government of India doesn’t care about him, then he announced his marriage. Which is fine by me but, all I am saying is, Please take off the saffron robe and put on a Versace pant, Polo Tea shirt. and Gucci shoes. After that, it is nobody’s business.
But if you keep diluting the Vinaya edicts, it is everyone’s business to criticize. So all I’m saying to you, sir, is follow the rules. Like everyone has to. You are no exception. Peace.
Upon reading the comments this far I have this to add:
Karmapa Thaye Dorje has made this official announcement of having given up the Vinaya monastic vow after the fact — a good step — being upfront and honest. However he still holds all the training/education of his lineage and will continue to do so for his students and disciples. Whether Thaye Dorje will start to wear golden-coloured (brocade?) chuba is again his choice.
Yes there was a previous Karmapa who had taken a consort. Amongst Sakyapas only the throne holders take consorts as the lineage is held by the Family bloodline. Nyingmapas are the more easy-going and open amongst the Tibetan Buddhist schools concerning keeping this Vinaya discipline.
Being overly puritanical will create unhealthy practices. Degeneration of monastic discipline is as old as the Tibetan hills. Don’t need to bring it up here.
Some one mentioned Samaya — I don’t see any broken Samaya. Yes broken monastic Vinaya vow. The core teachings and practice — more important.
Why the hoopla on Thaye Dorje marrying? He wasn’t the first Karmapa to marry and most probably won’t be the last. As for the debate on who is the genuine Karmapa, that’s for the followers to decide and not us.
I hope my fellow Gelukpas are not giving their two cents on matters that should not concern them regarding what is right or wrong in a sect that they don’t subscribe to.
More info: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khakyab_Dorje,_15th_Karmapa_Lama
He did not choose to be a Rinpoche. People forced it upon him. Imagine all the years of normal childhood robbed from him. Taken away from the embrace of a loving mother at an age when he needed her the most.
While other children played, fought, ran, shouted, cried, etc. around freely, he might have been made to sit in a dignified way on a throne, with a holy looking hat on his head!!
1. Doesn’t all this sound like evidence for a case of serious child abuse?
Wanting to romance, marry, have sex and have children are all natural human instincts. What is so good in suppressing them? A lifelong celibacy, that too forced upon you at childhood, sounds very unhealthy and unnatural.
I praise him for bearing it all these years. And I am happy that he had to guts to make his choice finally and lead a normal human life.
Have some mercy and respect his choice, if you cannot rejoice in it!
2. And regarding the monks’ robe matter, is the essence of Buddhism in the way you dress or in the knowledge?
He may have accumulated enormous knowledge through 30 years of learning, which wouldn’t disappear overnight. If that knowledge and learning is still in his brain, what does it matter if he hangs on to a robe for some more time.
3. I have some questions to all those who are being critical and judgemental of his choice:
a. Why do you think you are qualified to judge him? What is your qualification?
b. If you think upholding the dharma is so important, would you care to join a monastery and lead an austere, celibate life yourself?
c. Would you make your son a monk and your daughter a nun, or would you send them to a school for modern education?
The truth is that our society is full of dralok (ex-monk) and ani-lokpa (ex-nun). The reason there are so many dralok and ani-lokpa in our society is because they did not choose to become monks or nuns. Their parents pushed them into monastery or nunnery because, in most cases, they could not afford to feed them properly!
Fortunately, Tibetans in exile no longer choose to make their children monks/nuns.
We all know that the large Tibetan monasteries in India cannot find enough monks to fill their monasteries. The senior monks go to poor families of remote Himalayan regions like Himachal, Arunachal, Ladakh, etc. to recruit young monks. Another source of monks for these monasteries are the teenagers that arrive from Tibet. All stay in the monasteries until they figure out how to sustain themselves outside the monasteries. Once they figure out, they leave the monasteries/nunneries.
The whole society is like that. Why single out one person just because he happened to be “famous”.
As I said before, religion and everything connected with it is just a fiction of our mind. Why cry blue and red for some imaginary concept.
Be humane. Live and let live.
I think that nobody criticises him because he married, but because he still wears the robes. That is misleading his followers. If he is sincere then he would let go of so-called leadership. It seems like he just wants to have it all, and that is not good.
1. Are you his follower?
2. If you are not, how do you know that his followers are being misled?
3. May be his followers don’t mind him marrying and wearing the robe.
Please read below Dorjee la’s argumentation. I think that says it all.
But who is Dorje-la?
Who gave him the right to judge another person?
And what proof is there that what Dorje-la says is the ONLY right way?
And who gave you the right to judge?
Do you hold a PhD in this field for you to be able to say what the monk should and shouldn’t do?
There’s got be a certain threshold to be in or out of any discipline, be it Catholic, Buddhist, Muslim, or anything.
In Buddhism monkhood, you have to follow the rules of Vinaya. You just can’t do whatever you want and then decide what is and what isn’t. There are only TWO (Not 1 or 3 or otherwise) types of branches of Tibetan Buddhist. They are: Rabjung Ngurmi Day 2: Goekar Chanloe Day. There is NO mention of Khichiri Ki Day. Or Ra Lang Chang Lang Gi Day, which is what he is doing.
Now the headline says: He is marrying his old friend, well, how long has he been with her while pretending to be a monk? Not being true to himself. Misguiding his followers. That is the crux of the problem.
To Err is Human. You make mistakes and accept it. That is acceptable rather than breaking a Holy Vinaya vow and misleading.
If you are a monk then you don’t go out with a woman. If you aren’t then you put on a PANT and SHIRT and be true to yourself. But not degrade the whole community of Buddhists.
I know some Geshe Las who have contacts with women and accept they have broken Vinaya vows and live a life of a Lay person. I honestly respect those rather than someone disrespecting the Holy Vinaya.
I believe Thaye Dorje’s followers should be the judges concerning this issue. The followers of the Sakya and the Nyingma sect are perfectly accepting of their Lama’s having consorts and wives, and obviously it’s their right.
As a Gelukpa, I have my views of what is acceptable of my Lama. It makes little sense for me and those who don’t follow Thaye Dorje to point out what should or should not be done.
It is his right to marry, if that is what he wants. Those who want to believe and worship him will continue doing so no matter what.
Religion, rinpoche, nechung, oracle, shugden, sungma, etc., are all creations of human mind, and not real. So what does it matter whether someone is married or celibate.
Congratulations with the marriage! Wish you a happy married life, whether in robe or without it.
His Holiness the Dalai Lama has stated several times that there are quite some fake lamas, and although they claim to be, their actions speak for themselves. I don’t know if true app ole Nydahl also told him to before?
I have a Tibetan friend who is in the Thaye Dorjee camp, and when I told him the story, he was dumbstruck. It indeed is a time of degeneration for the Buddha Dharma when a “Lama” tries to gain name and fame using Dharma.
Of course he can marry as many times as he wants. … But when you have a wife, you have to follow Samaya. It is a simple Buddhist edict and be true to yourself. Some kadampa Lama rightly said “Tse Dila Shen na Choepa Min.” What they are trying to do is an unreligious act in the name of Dharma.
For that reason, as a concerned Buddhist, I demand that he take off the monk’s robe by helping maintain the Samaya. Otherwise it is a slippery slope. I guarantee you the next in line to marry would be the Lama who wears that funny Cockatoo hat in public from Ladakh who it is said plays with scores of Ani’s (bunch of failed 10th and 12 graders) from his monastery. They will declare these as his “Khandomas”. I truly think some Kagyu Lamas are playing with fire by degrading Dharma. A Bad Apple in society. How SAD!!!
I think you’re taking things down a slippery slope attacking a particular sect and its lamas. So beware of that. If anything its the kargyupas, his disciples and people like your friend that he owes an explanation. Remember that he owes us nothing.
Sad thing, degeneration time, showing the decline of Buddhadharma.
Well, you can’t blame him. He didn’t choose to be selected as the Karmapa. He was just a little kid when they selected him. Now he’s all grown and his hormones have been acting up, so with more confidence and having accumulated quite a bit of Dharma knowledge, having traveled the world and become worldly wise, he felt he was ready for it.
Anyway, we have Karmapa Ugen Thinley Dorjee who is more widely accepted as the authentic one so its o.k. But i do hope that he would stop wearing robes. You can’t have your cake and eat it too. Unless of course one is a realized being who is living in the moment. The rest need to follow certain rules because you are still only playing a part.
I don’t understand it either. To me, he wants to have it all — to marry, and to keep the title and still wear monk s robes. I feel like, if he is a genuine lama he ought to be conscious of his responsibilities, especially if he wants to be a religious leader.
I knew this was in the offing. I don’t understand how he can still wear those monk robes.
[…] But to save the piousness of Dharma, [he could just wear regular clothes]. […]
[…] Finally people should know right from wrong from examples like these.
[[ Please see the comment guidelines for how to comment with compassion. Thank you 🙂 — Web Admin ]]
Agree
He said, “Something beautiful will come out of this” … In my own view, I don’t see how can he still wear those saffron robes in public and act pious? I think that some Lamas except for the Real Karmapa Ugyen Dorjee, are a drag on the name of Buddhism.
Rang Gi Sem La Rang Gi Takpa Majay Na,
Choepay suk Gi Choemin Jay Si Pay
How aptly did Gyalsay Thokmay Sangpo say in 37 acts of Boddhisattvas (Laglen Sodun Ma).
[[ Please see the comment guidelines for how to comment with compassion. Thank you 🙂 — Web Admin ]]
Agree